Choir Baton Podcast Episode 35. The Architect of Choral Repertoire: an interview with Dr. Dennis Shrock
Apr 27, 2020
In an unprecedented era of technology use in choral music, I was curious: how has technology influenced the history of choral music? I knew insight could be found from none other than the god of choral repertoire himself, Dr. Dennis Shrock.
As a graduate student in choral conducting his Choral Repertoire book served as our bible for three semesters of choral literature. I poured over the many pages of his scholarship looking for insight into what the best choice would be when I was trying to determine what music to select for my graduate lecture recital. Admittedly, this was the most intimidated I have ever been for an interview. I am the farthest thing from a choral literature savant. And yet, I had to know what this man thought on this subject.
I am delighted to share this interview with you. We not only talk about technology in choral music and how it's benefitted his research and writing, we gain valuable insight into his process. You'll be moved by his story. You'll be reminded of the power and influence a teacher can have on the lives of their students. You'll be inspired to listen to new music and to try your hand at arranging. And you'll also have a greater sense of appreciation for writing literature.
Thank you, Dr. Shrock for this wonderful interview.
#MorePeopleSinging
Choir Baton Host: Beth Philemon | @bethphilemon
Choir Baton Podcast Producer: Maggie Hemedinger
For more information on Choir Baton please visit choirbaton.com and follow us on Instagram @choirbaton
Special Thanks to Julia McBride from Music Service Learning for editing this transcription.
Dennis Shrock is author of three books published by Oxford University Press: Choral Repertoire (2009); Choral Scores (2015); and Choral Monuments (2017). He is also the author of five books published by GIA: Performing Renaissance Music (2018); Performance Practices in the Baroque Era (2013); Handel’s Messiah, A Performance Practice Handbook (2013); Performance Practices in the Classical Era (2011); and Music for Beginning Conductors, An Anthology for Choral Conducting Classes (2011). In addition, he is co-author with James Moyer of A Conductor’s Guide to Choral/Orchestral Repertoire, and he is editor of early-music editions for the GIA Historical Music Series. Dr. Shrock has held faculty positions at Boston University, Westminster Choir College, the University of Oklahoma, and Texas Christian University, and has had residencies at the University of Delaware, Baylor University, the University of Southern California, the University of Mississippi, and Yale University. He has also served as Artistic Director of the Santa Fe Desert Chorale and Canterbury Choral Society of Oklahoma City, Interim Conductor of the Dallas Symphony Chorus, and Editor of The Choral Journal.
In addition, he has been a frequent All-State conductor and lecturer at various universities and conferences of the American Choral Directors Association. He has received a number of awards and recognitions for his work. The City of Santa Fe declared December 22, 2003 “Dennis Shrock Day,” Westminster Choir College granted him an “Alumni Merit Award,” the state of Oklahoma conferred on him a citation for “Contributions of Excellence,” and the University of Oklahoma granted him two “Distinguished Lectureships” and named him a “Presidential Professor.” Dr. Shrock received a bachelor’s degree in music education from Westminster Choir College and both master’s and doctoral degrees in choral conducting from Indiana University.
Beth Philemon: Welcome to the Choir Baton, a podcast designed to engage with people and stories, ideas, and inspirations stemming from choir. No other art form, no sport, no hobby, no business requires a group of people to execute a communal goal with just their voices.
Join me, your host, Beth Philemon, as I interview guests who are singers, teachers, conductors, instrumentalists, and community members. Together, we'll ask questions, seek understanding, and share insight from our experiences in life and in choir. Choir Baton listeners, thank you for joining me for another episode of the Choir Baton Podcast. I am really excited to have Dr. Dennis Schrock as our guest today. Welcome Dr. Schrock!
Dennis Schrock: Thank you. Glad to be with you, doing this.
Beth Philemon: Absolutely. So if you know the name of Dr. Schrock, it is probably from one of his eight books that he has self-published; three with Oxford, five with GIA. In addition to his co-authorship he's done with other people as an editor, in addition to the faculty positions that he's held, so many awards, recognitions, and so on and so forth. So again, I'm really excited that you're joining us today.
Dennis Schrock: Well, thank you so much. If you could see me, you’d see that I was blushing.
Beth Philemon: I love it, I love it. Well, Dr. Schrock, you are the leading expert in choral repertoire, and the history of choral music and I was really excited to talk with you today about innovation in choir. I think particularly with what we're experiencing around the world is choir rehearsals as we've known them for thousands of years are not existing. We are having to innovate within our field, and I just want to know all of your thoughts about where we've come from, and maybe your thoughts on where we are gonna go to.
Dennis Schrock: Yeah, sure - and I very much would like to talk about the actual choir experience. But I'm given my history as an author. I'd like to talk about that first, and the influences of technology. So when I wrote my first book, the choral repertoire book with Oxford University Press, that was 11 years ago. I needed libraries. I began when I was at the University of Oklahoma, and fortunately, they would buy any primary source I wanted them to buy and they even put it in a little room and I had the unusual benefit of being given a key to the library, so I could go in on weekends and/or Sundays and holidays and so forth, and work. It was one of my prized possessions during that time. But then, I moved and I spent time in Santa Fe when I was artistic director of the Santa Fe Desert Chorale, and the University of New Mexico was also very helpful. Then in the final stages of writing the book, I was at Yale, and of course, Yale School of Music as one of the great music libraries, so I was fortunate with all of that.
Not later now, for instance, my most recent book, which is with GIA and it's on performing Renaissance music - I have no need for libraries at all because all of the material exists online. So for instance, this is unusual - one of the chapters of performing Renaissance music is on ornamentation, a little basically-unknown ornamentation during the Renaissance era. Most people think it's Baroque, but it was a large performance practice area during the Renaissance era - and so I identified 10 primary source treatises during mostly the 16th century that dealt with the topic of ornamentation and (I) identified them. Every single one of them in its original Form exists on IMSLP. So I could not only work with translations, but I had the originals. I could download exact images and then put them actually in the book. So that source - and if your readers or listeners are not familiar with the Petrucci Library, which is called IMSLP, then they should become aware of it, because it's a great source of choral music. Instrumental music as well.
Beth Philemon: Right. You know, I have been on IMSLP numerous times, particularly during my graduate study, and in choral literature, for which we use your book that you spoke up. I'm curious when you are going through that because it is so massive, there is so much to it. What are ways in which you discern quality?
Dennis Schrock: Well, that's really fascinating because I am, right now, writing another book, my newest one, and it is entitled “Creating Excellence in Choirs and Orchestras”. So I am specifically targeting the aspect of quality in repertoire and in performance.
Beth Philemon: Right.
Dennis Schrock: So how does that come about? Well, from a lot of different sources. The more sources one has at one's disposal, the more objective one can be. So for instance, if 10 sources say the same thing, one can pretty much assume that there's relative accuracy in what is being said. And if a number of historical sources over the years say that the Beethoven Missa Solemnis or the St. Matthew Passion, or the Palestrina Missa Papae Marcelli are ‘masterworks’, then one can assume, I guess, that they are master works, and that I can therefore recommend them in the book for up-and-coming students of choral repertoire. These are the works you should probably get to know.
Beth Philemon: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it brings about another interesting point there too, that people, especially myself included, struggle with the fact that it is a time-staking process, right? We're so used to this might well what I used to call microwave society, you know, things happen so quickly. Now they happen even faster. It really is engaging in this process and taking the time to dig deep.
Dennis Schrock: True. So I've been very fortunate, not only in the length of my professional career, because I started teaching at Westminster Choir College when I was in my 20s, but then in having the experiences with such a variety of repertoire. As as a student, I got to perform the Mahler Symphony No. 2 and No. 8 with (Leonard) Bernstein in the New York Philharmonic, the Beethoven 9th with Herbert Von Karajan in the Berlin Philharmonic, and also with Leopold Stokowski, and the Verdi Requiem with Eugene Normandy. I had these experiences when I was an undergrad student, and then it just went on from there.
Then teaching graduate students. We were just always performing the Bach cantatas and the Mozart masses. And then I went to Santa Fe and I had no previous experience with all of the virtuosic a cappella choral moments or (music) from around the world. But I certainly gained that because it was part of my responsibilities as artistic director of that ensemble. Over the years, I was able to be connected with these various aspects or genres of choral music, and therefore get to know them.
Beth Philemon: Right. Now I'm curious. At Westminster, did you already have in-mind a career in academia? Or were some of those influenced from performances that you were a part of, were those also driving factors to pursue the career that you have?
Dennis Schrock: No, I did not have ‘the dream’ of being an academician or a conductor. I was there because I was attracted to music. Through various circumstances, I knew that I was not going to be an architect, which is what I thought I wanted to be, but there was this music. It was the faculty and other people who said, “this is what you need to do, this is where you should go”, and I had trust and faith in them. There was one particularly critical important event or circumstance that really set me on my path - a great choral conductor by the name of Howard Swan. He's not very well known these days because he was the predecessor and basic teacher of people like Robert Shaw and Roger Wagner.
Anyway, he was at Westminster for a session of five days intercession, talking about the history of choral music in America. You know, in the schools of St. Olaf and Westminster, etc, and so forth. I helped him. I was there, making sure he had all the materials he needed, and we had breakfast and lunch and dinner and drinks together, and you know, it was wonderful. I got to spend these five days with him. At the very end of it, he said, “Dennis, I think I've gotten to know you. There are scholars, and there are conductors, you be both.” Yep, that's what he said. I didn't exactly comprehend it then, but I certainly do know.
Beth Philemon: Wow. I mean, I have chills even just thinking about the magnitude: first, of anyone saying that to someone, especially a young student, as you were at that time, but then, someone of the magnitude of Howard Swan, saying that. It’s amazing.
Dennis Schrock: Yeah, it was amazing. I am, of course, very, very grateful. When it came to the writing of the choral repertoire book, I wanted to help people find their way through this mass of repertoire, and to be of some help to students in finding their way through all of this. Also to conductors, who would be programming and who say for instance, wanted to do a Handel oratorio other than Messiah, right? So, you know, what are they? What are they about?
So I was fortunate, with circumstance, in when I was in Santa Fe, one of the members of the board of the Desert Chorale, Don Lamb, had been president and CEO of Norton and Norton. He was basically retired, living in Santa Fe, but he was a big chorale supporter. We got together and he said, “Dennis, you need to you need to write this book, and here's what you're going to do, and you're going to submit it to Oxford.” I didn't know anything from anything, but I followed his lead and submitted it. Then again, being fortunate, I immediately had communication with Suzanne Ryan, who was then Editor of Music Books for Oxford University Press. She then went on to become Editor in Chief of Humanities. I was dealing directly with her, and together, we came up with the format of choral repertoire, and that it could in fact be written, only because there was no the question of whether anybody could write such a book such as this 11 years ago, or course more than 11 years ago.
Beth Philemon: Right. How long was that process?
Dennis Schrock: Well, it was a couple of years, and that's another funny story. Book contracts are usually for ‘number of words’, as they are for papers in colleges and universities too. Suzanne came up with 400,000 words. So your book will be 400,000 words, and no more, Dennis, no more than 400,000 words. So okay, fine. I'm in the process of writing, and one day, I think, “Oh, well, what does that mean actually?”. What does that translate to when I'm sitting down writing every day? Well, you know, that's 1000 words a day, every day for two years. I mean, you know, given that you have to proof and you have to research. It's not just tabulating 1000 words a day.
Beth Philemon: That's unbelievable. And so how many words did it end up being?
Dennis Schrock: Well, actually, it was it was 399,900 and something. Really, it was that, but I don't care. I mean, Suzanne won't care to know this by now. But there's a very curious procedure with Oxford. You have to go through multiple layers of evaluation and peer review and all sorts of things before the contract is finally given. Then you set a deadline, then (you set the) ‘numbers of words’, and then, it comes back with critiques, and, “What about this?” and “What about that?”. As an author, you're dealing with them. “Well, okay, I'll revise this” and “No, I'm gonna keep this the way it is.”. But it'll go through these various little transformations and no one reads it after that. No one reads it, so no one knows, except the author, if it's keeping to 400,000 words or not. I took advantage of that. I just wrote what I wrote and it ended up being more than. That was not a problem because it really needed to be under 800 pages, and in fact, it was 800 pages.
Beth Philemon: It's sitting right beside me, and at where I not too worried about being loud with turning the pages, that was going to be my check to see how many pages it was.
Dennis Schrock: Well, you know, if I can jump ahead, once that was finished, I actually met with Suzanne, and her then-assistant, Norm Hershey, I think his name is, who's now editor of music books. We were just visiting in the offices in New York City, and she said, “What's next?”, and I said, “Well, funny you should ask. I think we need a book of choral scores, you know to be accompanying right now, because there had only been the Norton and Norton one ages before that, which I also had a part in. She said “Exactly my thinking. We're going to do this.”. Then it became 1000 pages, and that became, “We can't bind together a book any larger than 1000 pages.” and she would remind me periodically, “Dennis, 1000 pages, 1000 pages.”. Well, if you happen to have the book of choral scores, the final page in the book is ‘page 1000’. It's just funny circumstances, the way these things turn out.
Beth Philemon: It's fascinating to hear that process because it's easy to not know, quite honestly, if you've not been through the right research, writing and production of what it takes to publish a book, to know that (information), and just to have a greater sense of appreciation and understanding of the process that goes into it.
Dennis Schrock: Yes, I do think it's interesting. I've had this conversation with some of my former students who have gone on to publish themselves. I think it's been helpful to them. I'd like to continue now since we're on this subject of sharing technology or getting back to that. When we started, well, when the Norton and Norton Choral Anthology was done, it was a cut and paste. Literally, you had scores, and we cut them and pasted them, and that became what was then photographed, and then made into the anthology.
For Choral Scores with Oxford now, Suzanne said, “No, we need authentic scores and we can get them from various different sources”, but the book in the quality that she wanted it needed to be consistent throughout in terms of its look, and so everything sort of needed to be the same. I assumed that I myself would do 6 or 10 additions, and I would do them on either ‘Finale’ or ‘Sibelius’. But that didn't turn out to be the case. We really couldn't pull from sources like CPDL, right, mostly because those sources weren't reliable enough and they just needed more updated research. And then of course, there was the consistency format issue. I ended up doing 60 of those editions. So I had to become a wizard, and it happened to be that ‘Sibelius’ works best for me. I tried ‘Finale’, but that just wasn't good for me. That book exists because of the software of ‘Finale’ and ‘Sibelius’, which, prior to however many years ago, couldn't have been possible because that software just was not there.
Beth Philemon: Right.
Dennis Schrock: So it's another great benefit of technology.
Beth Philemon: Absolutely. You know, it's so fascinating to just think about the sheer technology of how music engraving has impacted us. I think about it as a performer, but to hear about it in that context, as an academic and researcher, I honestly haven't put the dots together as to engraving and technology techniques that have really influenced that aspect of it. Not just for a performer.
Dennis Schrock: Right. I mean, I tell students all the time, if you don't like an edition make your own. They'll take you several hours, you know, just to sit and take this a capella Renaissance motet or madrigal. Then you've got got your own edition for your own choir. Not that I don't want them to go out and buy editions, published editions. These are ones that are more historically accurate. That's what I'm doing with GIA in the historical edition series, just creating my own. By the way, I send them to GIA a photo ready so they don't have to be re-set.
Beth Philemon: Yeah. Wow. So anything that's, well, let me ask - do you think that is something we as conductors take for granted today? The fact that there are so many editions at our fingertips? Our first instinct is to not create our own, but to use one that currently exists, versus, that's actually been the way in which people have operated for for thousands of years.
Dennis Schrock: Yes, I do think that's the general attitude. It's mostly because there are a lot of people who think that they can create their own, even though, I don't know - how many choral conductors do you think are familiar and have the skills to do Finale or Sibelius? Can you estimate that?
Beth Philemon: I think it's actually growing and changing - rising, when I say changing. There are a couple new music notation platforms out there that are even more intuitive, in my opinion, than ‘Finale’ and ‘Sibelius’. I think it's a mix. I think we definitely see a rise in that. We also see a rise in people not notating things and just recording it as well.
Dennis Schrock: Yes, of course, that is true. And then when we talk about technology, people don't just look at scores to learn what they may be like. They go on YouTube where they can find a recording of virtually everything. Back to the engraving, or the creating of your own editions - it's easy. The hard part is doing the research, you know, coming up with ‘I'm going to put it in this key,’ and ‘I'm going to have this music effect here, I'm going to have this meter signature, or text underlay. Once that's done, then the actual creating of the edition is easy. Then of course, your rehearsal process is so much more efficient, because you've got a quality edition from which your singers can be singing,
Beth Philemon: Right. So, now at this point in your career, there's no doubt to me that a certain level of this research phase just is second nature to you. When you were starting out, what was your approach to that research process for creating your own editions?
Dennis Schrock: Well, I had been involved with - backtrack. Having very little musical training when I was growing up and not being in a musical environment, I was an outsider and I came to it with a different perspective. Music wasn't ‘this way it always is, because this is the way we grew up with it.’
Beth Philemon: I love that - I think that's huge.
Dennis Schrock: Well, it's been beneficial for me, even at Westminster Choir College as a student. This was in the days just following the death of the founder, Jonathan Williamson, when the sound was big and thick and heavy, which worked well for the big choral orchestral works, but not so well for Renaissance motets or for Bach mass and passions. I knew intuitively that the way we sang the Bach B minor Mass, which we did, was not right. I even thought to myself, ‘If this music is so great, why does it sound so bad?’, and so I needed to find out what this was about, and so I made my first foray into reading primary sources.
Then, I have graduate students, on the faculty at Westminster, because I'm teaching choral lit, and we’re about the same age, some of them are a little bit younger, some of them are a little bit older. And then I get to Oklahoma and I have this graduate program. Every graduate student, every one of them was older than I was Now, it didn't matter. Yeah, it just didn't matter to them. But I couldn't just say to them, “This is just the way it is.”, I had to prove it. I had to have substance, so I collected primary sources. I just collected and collected, and they collected. We amassed all of these things, you know, about metric accentuation, and ornamentation, and phrasing and articulation from Renaissance sources all the way through. A number of these students did their dissertations on these subjects. And so, that's how I was able to then do further research. Oh, no, that's how I was able to facilitate the making of editions, because I could go back to the primary sources. Well, this is what they say, in terms of music effector and musical director. And so this is what, this is what we'll do.
Beth Philemon: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think that is a story more people need to hear and really embrace. It seems to me, you were not an island, right? You recognize the knowledge and skills and passion of, in this case, your students as colleagues. It was, you know, an interesting working-together symbiosis that enabled you to do even more than if you were acting all of this on your own.
Dennis Schrock: Absolutely. I've always, always had the attitude ‘surround me by the most talented people possible, and we'll all grow together’. And that was the environment always, and still is the environment. I just love to be surrounded by people who are brighter than I am, who are more talented than I am, and who can teach me things, not underplaying that I have a role too, and there's a certain amount of talent and information I have. Together, we then can further everybody's skill level, knowledge-set, and so forth.
Beth Philemon: Absolutely. It's very much so how I feel on this call, actually speaking with you. I feel so honored. Before we circle back to technology again, you know, I would love to hear a bit more about how you came to music, not having grown up in a musical household, and then accelerated so quickly to be teaching at Westminster after graduation, and to be younger than your graduate students at Oklahoma.
Dennis Schrock: Okay, yeah. So this is another very poignant and kind of gripping experience. So I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and went to a public school that happened to be in this very academically-oriented community called Squirrel Hill. The high school, even though public school, was high academic-standing, so forth and just, you know, took all the academic things. But, (I) managed for one year to sing in the choir, mostly because I wanted to avoid doing something else, and I loved it. There was one day we were singing the Faure Requiem and it was the Agnus Dei of that. The conductor was also very young, (he had) just graduated from Carnegie Tech then, Carnegie Mellon University now, and he ruminated after, you know, we had sung the Agnus Dei, he said, “Isn't that just about the most beautiful thing you've ever heard?” and I thought to myself, “Huh? Yeah. Yeah, that is.”, and so I was smitten.
But then I graduated high school in January and I went to this little school in Pennsylvania called Indiana University of Pennsylvania, IUP. It's in a little town called Indiana, Pennsylvania. And thinking about, you know, is it going to be music or architecture? I don't know, but I sang in the Glee Club and I took this theory course with this very unique faculty member by the name of Alan Truvit, and I thought it was just great fun, and I just did this, I did that. I kind of had the thought that I don't think I'm doing exactly what everybody else in the class is doing. But I was young. I mean, very young. So I did that, and then one day, I heard from somebody that he was leaving, so I went to his studio, and I said to Dr. Truvit, “Is it true that you're leaving?” and he said, “Yes, and you are too”. He helped me fill out applications and guided me to audition at Curtis, Oberlin and Westminster Choir College.
I ended up at Westminster College as a music major because he had faith in me and there I was. I should say that I transferred to Westminster, obviously, so I was a transfer student and I was there with some other transfer students, and they went and took the theory placement test. They were older than I was, and they took on both the freshman level and the sophomore level, and I didn't want to be by myself, so I took both of them too. I passed them all, so they put me in junior CounterPoint, having previously only had one semester of theory. So I went back to communicate with Dr. Truvit and I was saying, “Congratulations,” you know, “look what I was able to do.” He said, “Well, of course, because, you know, you didn't follow the regular syllabus of the class. I just took you as far as I could take you.” I benefited from that, and so there was a sense that as that student at Westminster Choir College, then word got out fast. Here's this kid who can who can do this, that and, “Oh, by the way he can sight read.”
In fact, my organ teacher said right away, “Do you have a church job?” and I said, “No.” and he said, “Well come and sing for me.” and he was the music director at Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church in New York City. So I went in and sang there. By the way, since we're going down memory lane here, I would always stay on Sundays, oftentimes having lunch with Dr. Marquis was his name, George Marquis, and his family; his wife and kids. But then I got to know some of the choir members and there was a group of them who lived in The Village. And so, you know, “Come down, spend the afternoon with us in The Village.”, so yeah, sure. “Well, we have some composers friends, who you should meet and who would like to meet you too”, and so I went down there and, and met his composer friends, the friends being Samuel Barber, and Aaron Copland. We just spent the afternoon together, talking about this, talking about that. Yeah. So I was fortunate, very, very fortunate in the people who supported me and in the experiences I've had with people and with repertoire.
Beth Philemon: Did you realize at that time as you were sitting, you know, in the same room as these greats, who you were with and what that would mean?
Dennis Schrock: Nope. I did not at all.
Beth Philemon: Yeah. Which in some ways is probably the bigger beauty of it.
Dennis Schrock: Well, I mean, they were young to this point. So I guess this was in the 60s. So I mean, Barber was, you know, just writing Antony and Cleopatra, and I remember he was thinking about making choral arrangements of his songs, like Sure On This Shining Night and The Monk and his Cat. I remember him talking about the dilemma of “People want me to make a choral version of the Adagio for Strings. I don't know what texts I could use, so I’m thinking about what that text might be.” So I remember, you know, him talking about things like that.
Beth Philemon: Wow.
Dennis Schrock: It's interesting now looking back on it, of course, because these are iconic works. That you know, I was involved, tangentially, but nevertheless, involved in their initial creation.
Beth Philemon: I think the other facet of this, which is so special, is you continue to be involved in the experience that so many people have with these works in your writing and research in and of the works themselves. Also the works that precede them that lead many people to discover and appreciate the beauty of them as well.
Dennis Schrock: Yes, I mean, absolutely. I am devoted to that. Sure.
Beth Philemon: I love that, thank you for sharing that story with us. I think that's just so special. Kind of turning us even more back to technology, and then, how have you really begun to see that as as we enter this new phase, right? We mentioned recording and that a lot of people will record things. I would love your thoughts on this and its place and role in choral repertoire.
Dennis Schrock: Yes. Well, you know, I knew Eric Whitacre, I knew that he was creating this virtual choir, and I was I thought it was a fascinating new manner of communication. I embraced it. I mean, I think it's wonderful because of the numbers of people it reaches. the number of people that it brings choral music to. Then now, right now, during this Coronavirus - Oh, there was some sort of Amber Alert, I guess. Can you hear that buzzing?
Beth Philemon: Very faintly. It's not bad.
Dennis Schrock: Okay, good. So, right now, there are church musicians - a number of my friends who are creating virtual choirs because they cannot meet for services, right. They're doing it specifically right now for Easter coming up, and so they have to use technology in order to communicate, in a choral sense with their congregants, right? So they're doing that. One of my former students, Nate Zullinger, who teaches at Haverford College has had me send him some ‘Sibelius’ files, and then he is forwarding them to his students, along with scores, so that they can study choral literature and hear the music. Then, a couple of my students, I just realized, are doing their own little YouTube things through Facebook I guess. One, Jonathan Hadley, is recording him playing the piano with ornamentation and tempos, so forth, based upon primary sources, and this is getting quite a following, because he's homebound. He can't teach and wants to reach his students and other people so he's using this format in order to do that. Dreadful as this virus is to the world, it has created some very, very unique possibilities and opportunities in terms of technology for music, don't you think?
Beth Philemon: I definitely do and you know, especially in the choral world, it's been an interesting debate to watch people discuss the merits as to whether or not virtual choir is real choir or not, to which my thinking is technology has always been innovating everywhere, but especially within choral music. You know, at what point do you say that choir is not choir is then a recording of any choir? Is that real choir music? Does choir music only have to exist as people singing it together at the same time in the same place? I don't think so.
Dennis Schrock: Well when you think that he virtual choir is created by people singing, then it's people singing. So it's, you know, there's that aspect of realism to it. It's just another form of, I'd say, ‘we have to move forward’. It's here, you know, let's take advantage of what it can do for us. Tight now during this virus crisis, we have to. It's basically our only manner of communication, so, bravo technology. Now, the fact that I am not on Facebook, nor on any other social media, (that) doesn't mean that I don't embrace technology. I do. It's just that I want to preserve some degree of a private life. I look for ways to get away from the computer, not to spend more time at it.
Beth Philemon: I love that, I do hope that has been the case for a lot of people as well as to find some sort of simplicity from behind the front of their screens during this time, as well. Maybe, you know, it's been exciting to see more people sitting behind their pianos or their instruments, or just singing and making music in general. I feel like there's been a real resurgence in that.
Dennis Schrock: Yes, I agree.
Beth Philemon: Interesting. Well, we're kind of wrapping up here. I could talk to you for hours. But while I have the leading expert in choral repertoire, you know, I was not raised with a super rich understanding of choir music. I grew up singing in church, but it was more from behind a hymnal, and then a little contemporary Christian music. In fact, growing up, I didn't realize that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir were two different things, to which they are very different - as you know, being in the New York City area. I'm curious as to, if you were to walk us through the basics of the history of choral music - I know that is the biggest task ever - but what could you say to whet someone's appetite about each of the the main areas?
Dennis Schrock: Well, okay, I'll give it a try, because you asked, not because I like it.
Beth Philemon: I know, I know. But I think this is a really cool thing for people to realize, because if they were like me - before I went to my graduate program, before I was introduced to your music and your work, I didn't fully understand the breadth of our history and I find that that is a common thing for people that have not been able to go in and do a secondary graduate study in this art form, and that's, that's only why I asked.
Dennis Schrock: Yeah, okay, so fine. I'll preface it by saying that the novice, you know, the person getting started in this, should focus on repertoire that's interesting. I say that because I think it needs to generate a spark that will want you to come back to it, and much of the music won't. This Dr. Truvit at Indiana University of Pennsylvania did give me some listening things to do and one of them was a Brahms Piano Concerto. I fell asleep listening to it and I just went back to him and I said “I just can't find anything to sustain my interest in this.” and he said, “Okay, but mark my words - one day you will consider this to be great.”. Okay, fine. And sure enough, you know, the Brahms Piano Concerto are great masterworks, but not then. In my teaching, I always wanted there to be a spark of interest, even in my program, and I knew that I wanted to be interesting to the audience.
Then, the other day, one of my former students, Jim Moyer, who teaches in Pennsbury, Pennsylvania, has a son who is at Westminster Choir College, but they’re, of course, home because nobody's in classes now. He said, “Dennis, can you give James a listening list of things that, you know, he might listen to while he's homebound?” and I said, “Sure.”. He has expressed an interest in Renaissance music, which I think is quite interesting. I compiled a list of pieces, not just from the Renaissance but from other eras too, that I thought he might find interesting. First, I went to my recordings that, I did five of them with the Santa Fe Desert Chorale, and one since then on Renaissance music, and they're all on my website, every track I've ever recorded. So I said “You can go there, Why don't you listen to tracks of this, that and so forth.” I picked things not like a Palestrina motet, but of Wilkes When David Heard or something that had more immediacy of “Oh Listen to how this cross-relation, or how dramatic it happens to be.”
So, in answer to your question, first in the Medieval Era, I would guide people to the works of Johannes Ciccone because they are fascinating; interesting in their hocket and in some of the other things. I think hardly anybody could not be fascinated by this music, so it can be a foothold or an entry into the Medieval Era.
For the Renaissance Era, you know, it might be Dowland lute songs, you know, which are relatively accessible. Gesualdo madrigals: who can't be fascinated by all that chromaticism and wild harmonic motion? Or epic works like the Tallis’s Spem in alium p. 299, the 40 part motet, or something like the Allegri Missa Vidi with all those high C’s. That could be an interesting entry into the Renaissance Era. For the Baroque Era, it would not be the B minor Mass or the St. Matthew Passion into the St. John Passion because of the incredible virtuosity of all of those melismatic lines, and it wouldn't be Handel Messiah, it would be Handel Israel and Egypt because when you're listening to all those plague courses, you know, the jumping of the frogs and the hail and so forth, that becomes fascinating. I think that the chorus, The Horse and his Rider that ends part two is just so thrilling. You know, one can hardly keep one’s seat.
So for the Classical Era, then, it becomes Haydn’s Creation which has so many colorful choruses.
From the Romantic Era - golly - the Berlioz Damnation of Faust. Again, it's colorful, so that would be my recommendation. Go for something that is particularly fascinating or interesting, and then, that'll take you somewhere else. “Well, if Handel wrote this here, then what else did he write that I might like?”. Then it's like looking in an encyclopedia, or even on the Internet; you're here, and then it takes you to there, that takes you to someplace else, and that takes you someplace else, and then several hours later, you've been to somewhere where you never thought you'd ever be.
Beth Philemon: That’s the beauty of research, isn't it?
Dennis Schrock: Yes. Oh, absolutely.
Beth Philemon: Okay, hearing you talk about all of this, I'm going to ask a very, very selfish question, and that is, my graduate research thesis was on Carissimi’s Jonas.
Dennis Schrock: Oh, I love - talk about fascinating. Yes, the storm scene is just wonderful. It's just so, so exciting and so dramatic and so colorful.
Beth Philemon: Yeah. What are your thoughts? I would just kind of even love your - I mean, again, another broad topic, but I’d thrive on seeing kind of where you go with it, this topic of musical rhetoric.
Dennis Schrock: Well, I mean, that's what we've been talking about. So, yeah, absolutely. It's just another way of expressing, you know, the finding of the expressiveness, or the finding of the drama, or the finding of the manners of communication through the music. Yes, I mean, I think so. Nikolaus Harnoncourt as you may know, has written a book on musical rhetoric, he talks about that. But, you know, back to the Carissimi Jonas, that final chorus is every bit as glorious, maybe more so, than the final chorus of Jephte.
Beth Philemon: I agree!
Dennis Schrock: But everybody knows the final chorus of Plorate Filii Israel. Everybody knows that, but few people know the final chorus of Jonas. Yeah.
Beth Philemon: Yeah. It’s one of those - I can't figure out why Jephte is much more popular than Jonas.
Dennis Schrock: Oh, who knows? I mean, why is Messiah as popular as it is? I mean, you just, you can't necessarily figure these things out. But what we can do is expand the universe of enjoyable music, and that's what my mission is, and that's what your mission is now, especially through your blogs.
Beth Philemon: Well, I'm just so grateful again to have you on here. You know, what are you keeping your eyes on for the future within choral music repertoire?
Dennis Schrock: Well, it's, it's from project to project. You know, this new book on ‘creating excellence’ is basically organized into a number of theoretical concepts and then a number of practical applications. So the theoretical might be goals, or focus and attitudes and procedures and the practical applications, sound and blend cohesion. and expression conducting repertoire. Alec Harris of GIA really likes it because of its accessibility, you know, to the world out there; choirs and orchestras. But, you should know that there will be a second edition of ‘Choral Repertoire’.
Beth Philemon: Really?
Dennis Schrock: Right, and it will likely include about 50 more composers, and these composers - not specifically, but there will be more women composers, and there will be more composers of color. So you're asking me about the future. I'm saying that I think the future needs to be more inclusive. Those of us, you know, who have an opportunity to do this are doing it.
Now, of course, this comes from Suzanne Ryan of Oxford University Press. She says, “If we're going to do this, Dennis, we need to, you know, to do this.” So there's that, but there's also an updating of research information, because it's just going at lightning speed. There are more things I know now than I did 11 years ago. I think the future is in a broadening of repertoire and it's more world repertoire; not necessarily folk repertoire, as World Music was, you know, however many decades ago - but just music from around the world, including from places like Iceland, and of course Estonia and not just, you know, the Euro-centric countries. But then, more research into historical performance, as the world spends millions of dollars restoring artworks and architecture. We need to spend time and effort and money restoring musical works so that the world can experience the works in the manner in which they were intended. So I think that’s incumbent upon the younger generation; to embrace this more and more.
Beth Philemon: Well, Dr. Schrock, I know that you entered college with plans to do music or architecture and, I have to say, I think you've successfully done both, because what you have built for us is not been out of, you know, manmade, building materials of the sense. But you have built so many frameworks and points of entry and accessibility for us to do exactly what you are asking for us to do in the future.
Dennis Schrock: Well, thank you and to use your words, “I love that”. I really do. That's very gracious of you and very heartwarming. Thank you so much.
Beth Philemon: Absolutely. Thank you again. And I'll be sure to include links to these, and your bio, and your books, and all of that in the future, as well as sharing with listeners when your new book releases will be out.
Dennis Schrock: Great. Thank you. Thank you again, very good luck to you in all your endeavors.
Beth Philemon: Thank you.
Beth Philemon: Thanks again for listening to another episode of the Choir Baton podcast. I'm your host Beth Philemon, and this episode has been produced by Maggie Hemedinger. You can follow Choir Baton on Instagram; that's where we hang out the most, both myself and the various takeovers that we host as well. Make sure you are lined up for our Choir Baton email that we send out once a week, with all kinds of information, inspiration, and insight in and about choir. Finally, know that Choir Baton exists to encourage you and to reignite a passion for choir within your heart, and mind, and soul, especially during this time. If it has done that for you, we know it will do that for others. So please consider sharing this with a colleague, whether they are a fellow singer, teacher, conductor, composer, anyone within the field, or anyone that's just interested in choir and needs to hear this message at this time. Thank you so much for listening and let's get more people singing!