Choir Baton Episode 57. Getting Down to Business (and Choir) with Tori Cook

Tori Cook is the Director of Sales & Marketing at Chorus Connection. She sings with the Tanglewood Festival Chorus and is a board member of the Greater Boston Choral Consortium. In a past life, she was the Music Director of the Harborlight Show Chorus and President of Chorus pro Musica in Boston. When not making music, she daydreams about adopting a golden retriever puppy and scuba diving to exotic locations around the world.

Contact Tori Cook from this email: [email protected]
Find more information about Chorus Connections here.

Choir Baton Host: Beth Philemon | Choir Baton Podcast Producer: Maggie Hemedinger

For more information on Choir Baton please visit choirbaton.com  and to follow us on Instagram @choirbaton @bethphilemon
Music by: Scott Holmes
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Beth Philemon: Choir Baton community, I am so stoked to welcome to the Choir Baton Podcast for the first time, Tori Cook. Tori, welcome.

Tori Cook: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Beth Philemon: Absolutely. So we're just chatting for the first time, like face to face a little bit before this, and I told her I was like, I feel like I know you because I stalk you and you know like very legal, safe normal let me learn about choir type of way, um, yeah.I've been reading your blogs for however long so Tori is the Director of Sales and Marketing with Chorus Connection.

Tori Cook: Right. Yes, that's correct.

Beth Philemon: So if someone's listening to this for the first time and they haven't been a stalker on the internet about all businesses choir related like I am, would you share with us a little bit, Tori, about who you are, first and foremost, and then we can move into what Chorus Connection is after that?

Tori Cook: Yeah, that sounds good. Um, so, as you mentioned, I'm the Director of Sales and Marketing of Chorus Connection. So that's my day job. Of course, you know, I studied Vocal Performance and I'm a musician at heart. And that's, you know what I tend to do at night. So I sing with the Tanglewood Festival Chorus at night. I'm on the board of the Greater Boston Choral Consortium and in a past life, before I got tired of doing everything, I was President of another chorus in Boston called Chorus per Musica. And I was also a music director for a small women's chorus here as well. So, you know, all of those things kind of just became too much. And as we know, you don't get paid a lot of money to do these things on the side and then I was finding that I just didn't have a lot of time for my family and that kind of thing. 

So I ended up kind of cutting the leadership stuff out. Focusing on my day job and just singing for at least a year. And then, of course, like I took a break for a year and then the Greater Boston Choral Consortium was like “Will you join our board?” and now I'm back in all these things again. So yeah, that's...

Beth Philemon: The slippery slope.

Tori Cook: It is a slippery slope.

Beth Philemon: I love it. Now, where did you go ? You said you had a Vocal Performance undergrad, right? yes and...

Tori Cook: I don't. Yeah, I'm weird. I'm like that weird person who likes music, music theory, you know. Yeah.

Beth Philemon: I listen to pop music and the car and, like, try to figure out what the meter is and what repeating music like-

Tori Cook: Yeah.

Beth Philemon: How I can teach it, like, you know, don't throw me under the bus with I would be like under a bus with like typical analyzation and all it like shanker bless

Tori Cook: Yeah.

Beth Philemon: But I mean I can nerd out about it as well. So yeah, you're in good company. Where did you go to school?

Tori Cook: And actually, I went to the University of Idaho. So that's where my, my parents are from, Idaho, and they retired there. And so I just went to school there because it was easy. And I ended up kind of long story short, I ended up graduating, a year early and I was going to college when I was 17. I needed to like stay home, you know, close to home.

Beth Philemon: As a double major, and you graduated a year early.

Tori Cook: Well, sorry. I graduated high school early and I was 17 years old going to college. So I actually had to stay kind of close to my family because Fairly kidding, and go to like the doctor when you're 17 without your parents really like. I mean, there's  at least at the time. I don't know if things are different now, but it was just one of those things where I was like, I have to tsay close. So I went to University of Idaho and they have a really good  Music School called the Lionel Hampton School of Music and they have this amazing Jazz Festival there that I work out of school as well. So it's a really great school and I got a good degree there and that was that.

Beth Philemon: Love that. I think so much of school is not always like where you went. But what you put into it.

Tori Cook: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I was one of those people that was literally involved in everything. I actually was a triple Major. Okay, I don't know how long we want to go into this story.

Beth Philemon: But you have to now - That’s like a unicorn!

Tori Cook: So yeah, I was like, I mean, it was all in the same vein, so there was a lot of crossover, but I was Vocal Performance, Music Theory and Music. Ed and then...

Beth Philemon: Wait you just flew music ed in there! Music ed is like a double degree at a lot of places, too!

Tori Cook: Right, I mean I you take all the ED coursework and that yeah so I basically did all the coursework for music ed. And then I did my student teaching- or not student teaching- I did like hours of observation in the classroom. And I just decided, like working in the public schools was not for me. And I still believe that was the case. And I just dropped it. And I just didn't do my student teaching so

Beth Philemon: Wow. So I think that's such a great story though. Because so many times people think like we had Maria Ellis on here. And that was kind of her. She's like, I don't want to teach in the classroom sort of thing. And we also have people that get into the classroom and their like “I don't want to take in a classroom.” So that's why stories like this. I think are really, really special. Just for someone listening to this because of a lot of young music ed students

listen, and that are struggling with the same emotions. Right? What was it for you. That helps you be like  “Yes, I do not want to teach in public schools” or you know even regular schools like this and it does not make me any less of a person or musician or anything like that, because I think that can be a pressure that a lot of people face.

Tori Cook: Yeah. Um, so it's kind of a weird story and like sort of sad. But I'll share it, just because it's honest and you know we all deserve a little honesty. So I think that for me, I've always loved music. I've always loved teaching. I'm definitely an educator at heart. I love teaching adult choirs.I think I would even like teaching kids to although I haven't really done it.

But when I did my hours of observation at the school. I had a situation where one of the young students actually told me that she was pregnant. And then I had to talk to my music ed teacher to figure out what I was supposed to do and then there was this whole, like, administrative process of like “Oh, you have to go to the guidance counselor” and “you have to do this” and “you have to do that.” 

And I wasn't comfortable with any of those types of things. So it was just something that I was like, I'm not- I can't handle like this adolescent stuff that's going on. Like I teach music. I don't know how to do any of this stuff. And of course, I'm like 21 at the time. So I'm super not equipped to do that. So it was a really, you know, kind of just, it was just a really clear indication to me that I was not ready for that.And there's so many other people out in the world that I think could do that. And would you know maybe not enjoy but like would be so good at managing that situation. And that's just not something that is a strength of mine so

Beth Philemon: I have chills. I'm serious. I have chills hearing that story. Every time someone on here goes like, I'm not, I'll just be honest and share it. Hands down. I will receive a message from someone after hearing this, having heard that story from you that it impacted them because that's so real. And so important, and we don't talk about it enough.

Tori Cook: Yeah, yeah. And there's so much that you have to deal with as a school educator. I mean, there's so many just situations, you have to deal with kids that you really have to be prepared emotionally to handle it.

Beth Philemon: 100% hundred percent Yeah. Nothing prepares- nothing- There's no ed class that can emotionally prepare you when a student is in an office and saying that they think they either are pregnant, they think they're pregnant or that they've had an abortion because they were forced to from their family or something like that.

Tori Cook: Yeah. And oftentimes, like I've, I don't. This is like there's a data to support this, but like I feel like a lot of times, students feel really connected to their music teacher in particular because of the way that music kind of builds community and builds connections with people. So I also feel like music teachers get a lot of that and they have to deal with a lot of that like emotional baggage and emotional situations and with kids so

Beth Philemon: Well, and I think that's too so many of our Music teachers in particular are struggling right now as they're not able to be in person for those kids all of them, or if they are in person. There's precautions involved that you know for their health and the kids health and look and the Guardians health and the adults in their lives, health and all of that. It just, and particularly when they've known them for so many years. I mean, there's so many layers even more to that today. Yeah, yeah.

Tori Cook: Yeah, so, you know, it's, it, it's one of those things that, like you can love music and you can love teaching, but you know just finding the right path is really important and and doing what feels right and I definitely do not regret that decision and I, you know, have gotten other opportunities that I've really enjoyed because I didn't go down that path. Like teaching the women's chorus I've taught and you know like theater productions vocal coaching, that kind of thing I've done like our private voice. Those kinds of things that maybe I wouldn't have even had time to do had I been teaching and public schools. So, you know, There's so many musical paths that you can take it doesn't have to just be public education, but if you do like that and you do enjoy that we need some great public education teachers, too, so

Beth Philemon: Hands, Hands down, hands down. I love that. Well, and I think that's like a great lead in right to Sales and Marketing is education like, it's just straight up education. And you are doing that on a macro scale with Chorus Connection.

Tori Cook: Yeah, absolutely.

Beth Philemon: So, Share with us what Chorus Connection is.

Tori Cook: So Chorus Connection, The way that I typically describe it in an easy way is that it's a membership management software and ticket sales software for Community choruses.

So it's a place where you know choral leaders of Community choruses can manage every, all of their data in one place, all of their members in one place, all their ticket sales in one place. And they can also, you know, bring their members into the key meet online community to connect with each other and to make sure that they're staying in touch with the chorus for all of the like announcements and calendar and you know everything going on with the choral organization.

Beth Philemon: Because running a choir is running a business, whether you are in school community or church.

Tori Cook: Yes. And this is also something they don't teach you in choral program. Is all of the administrative stuff you have to do for running a choral organization.

Beth Philemon: Yep. Yeah. I think truly if you are running a large scale program and even in some instance like smaller programs. And I mean, just from sheer numbers and then with numbers brings expectations for that. And quite frankly, if you have large numbers, you're probably out in the community, promoting yourself at a certain level, but you have to. You can't do it all. And you have to give up some level of it. And that's hard for control freak choir directors.And you have to be ready to give up some. I know, right. To give up some of the musical aspect or the organizational aspects or things like that. I mean, there's so many different levels. So I don't truly know. You've been involved in Chorus Connection from early stages, correct?

Tori Cook: Yeah, so the company actually started in 2013 and I joined the team in 2017

Beth Philemon: Okay, awesome, awesome. And, and then, you know, it costs money because it's a business.

Tori Cook: Yeah.

Beth Philemon: It is a for profit business right out of the 501C3

Tori Cook: Right. It's a for profit business. Yep.

Beth Philemon: Yeah, which there's not very many out there.

Tori Cook: Yes, correct. In terms of what we do. 

Beth Philemon: Well, like you do, but even just normal like nonprofit Choir organizations out there.

Tori Cook: That's true, yeah, there's not a lot of businesses. I think it's because it's such a niche market that it's tricky. I mean, for businesses to survive, you're never going to be that company that's going to be like a billion dollar company or multimillion dollar company, even if not we definitely don't do it for the money. Even arts organizations that are for profit are still working with nonprofits. So everything you do have to work for a nonprofit organization, including your pricing models and things like that. Right.

Beth Philemon: Right. So I think this is so important for every single listener to hear this next episode because we're going to get into like, Like nitty gritty not really nitty gritty, but like overarching things from even an administrative perspective and this is not an ad. This is not sponsored by Chorus Connection, right? Like I just believe in supporting organizations, because I don't think there's any others or at least that don't have the length of time that you guys have been involved in this niche. But I think that because what we do in choir is a small business, is so administrative. Everyone can learn something from what you're about to share with us a little bit more. So let's talk about like you gave a broad overview of what Chorus Connection does. Can you walk us through a little bit more of it as well?

Tori Cook: Of like the product or the content we create or…?

Beth Philemon: I Mean I know the content you create is like a whole other ballgame of how you give back to this community, which is amazing. Let's talk about the product. So, like, let's say, again, this is not an ad. But I think that it's important for people to know, but it is an ad because I'm supporting other course organizations. I believe in what you're doing. It's really important. So let's say I have a group called Six Weeks Sing, which I do and I and I say, “Hey, Tori like I want a Chorus Connection. What do you need from me?

Tori Cook: Yeah, so usually you know I make sure to talk with all organizations to make sure that we're actually a good fit. Because even though we serve a niche market of choral of the choral world. The world is a niche market. But then we're even more niche than that because we specifically work with community choruses. And even within that, that doesn't mean every community chorus is going to be the right fit for us, or we’re the right fit for them. So we always kind of walk through a lot of the operations and see if we're a good fit. 

So we are a good fit for organizations who very much operate. In a community setting. So we're talking adult community choirs or children's choirs that are community based not like public school choirs, for example, and that really use their members to run the organization. So what I mean by that is, they rely on their members for member dues. They rely on their members to help sell tickets. They rely on their members to help get donations. A lot of their members are all of the above: their ticket buyers, their patrons. They're a member. And so we really just kind of helped keep all of that data in one place and just make it easier for the lives of administrators. So just like a couple things that we offer to get a sense of, like, who uses us. The first thing that's a very robust feature that we have is member dues and payments so anytime you're collecting fees from-

Beth Philemon: When are we not saying, give us money?

Tori Cook: Exactly, exactly. It's like, you know, we're charging member dues or recharging Music fees like work. We have an upcoming concert coming up. We got to make them pay for their music. Just to kind of organize it, keep it all in one place. It runs incredibly advanced reports of who has and hasn't paid and it like reminds people to pay when they log into the system. So it  just completely gets rid of like bookkeeping for members. Which is a huge thing. And the same thing could be said for our ticket sales feature too. So people can sell tickets as well. But it also has that reporting so that you can keep track of the financial stuff as well. Um, it's not accounting software that's a whole other ballgame. But it helps you kind of just keep track of who knows what well.

Beth Philemon: That's huge, though, right. Because you've said the word like three or four times. Now that's like making my MBA attending school like heart happy and then like my music teacher side self being like, and that's the D word. Yeah. letter D word data.

Tori Cook: Data. Exactly, yes, yes.

Beth Philemon: Have you always been a proponent of data?

Tori Cook: Yes, I'm a big geek when it comes to everything. I mean, as I said, music theory was my thing I you know I live and breathe data management and marketing to I mean in marketing, you always have to keep an eye on you do like testing we call like a B testing and you like experiment and you

Beth Philemon: Pass regression over here you are running some code.

Tori Cook: Exactly, yes. So, you know, but I think that music people don't always love data. So even though I'm a freak. Love it. You know a lot of people are like, I just want to teach music and I don't want to have to deal with spreadsheets and finances and asking people for money or like keeping track of all of this stuff because it takes away from what I want to be doing, which was teaching music. So I think that like that's the kind of thing that Chorus Connection or other choral software companies hope to do..

Beth Philemon: But by 110% I agree and have no doubt and have said those words myself.  Even as someone that like does enjoy that. For me, it's hard to oscillate between the two. I can do one really well or the other really well, but I don't jump back and forth between the two very Well, and I challenge listeners who, like myself, have, as a teacher, generally lived in the creative side and not the spreadsheet side, that when you do take ownership of the data. It can transform the music that you can make

Tori Cook: Oh absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I mean I think when I asked people, like, “Who's your audience”. Um, or you know who's Yeah, like who's your ticket buyer who are your donors, those kinds of things. A lot of people don't know. Which is so interesting because you know when you're in business and it's your day job and you have 40 hours a week to dedicate to it. That's something you know you know the demographics of your audience. I think a lot of times music organizations don't have that level of data. And there's a lot of reasons why that is but, So I think like finding the tools that can give you that data without you having to do a lot of work is so important because Then you can make sure that your product, your choir concerts, your content that you're producing is relevant to your audience. If you don't know that you don't really know if what you're doing is relevant.

Beth Philemon: It's like teaching music and like handing kids well okay this controversial here, but it's like handing kids a Bach motet , not that you’re handing them a Bach motet,  you're handing them the music and you're giving them a part track- controversial post here. And I said, go back and learn this piece of music and then they come in and you're like, “Okay. They know how to read music” and like “turn to measure 32 I need an eighth note rest here” and edited it out and they're like, “what?” Because it's like assuming that they've used the music to be able to learn to read it and they just use the audio track and you don't know what they know and what they don't know. That's huge.

Tori Cook: Yeah, and sometimes you just have to gather the data. But again, it's like if you're not a data guru, how do you go about doing that?

Beth Philemon: Where do you start, you guys help people start?

Tori Cook: I think from a member standpoint, we do, I mean, there's, there's so many pieces of the administrative puzzle. And so, you know, you have donors. So you need donor management software. You have ticket buyers. So you need ticket sale software. You have your members who are a huge part of your organization which sometimes I feel like is often overlooked. So you need software that manages them. You need accounting software to manage all of your bookkeeping. So it's just all of these pieces of the puzzle and nobody, no company does all of it in one place right now, but everyone does their piece and you can use those pieces to get the data that you need. And hopefully get the pieces to, you know, work together in an ideal world,

Beth Philemon: You know I mean I work also for like a fortune 500 company, right, and like our different sales teams all use different sales management, things like this, that and the other. So

Yeah, you know its there. I don't know if we'll ever get to that point where we can all use one and if anything, it's, I'm so nerdy today with my music analogies. I guess I haven't used them in a couple days. So I'm excited to like speak the language. Right. But it's like handing our people a piece of music and you want to fall apart piece and like utilizing your soprano, alto, tenor and basses. For this, that's what you're doing to Make it all sound musical together.

Tori Cook: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good analogy. I can't come up with analogies on the spot. That is not a forte of mine.

Beth Philemon: It's a blessing and a curse because sometimes they come up with them. And people are like,

Tori Cook: That didn't work.

Beth Philemon: Yeah. Um, but it yeah just- The curse of my brain, the beauty and the curse. So I love that. So you handle like the management, the payments. I know I have no doubt. You have probably transformed some choir's livelihoods, right?

Tori Cook: Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think that, you know, it's one of those things that sometimes you don't get until you're in it and you're like, why did we ever do hat we did before?. And I mean, I always speak from personal experience, but like when I was, you know, president of an organization, we just had spreadsheets everywhere and nobody was talking together. No one was communicating. So something as simple, literally, as simple as having a concert roster that was constantly updated and accurately updated was impossible because we had section leaders who were keeping it, keeping track of it in their own spreadsheets and then we have like chorus manager and the music director like in their own spreadsheets and then, like, people would email the music director, but not the section leader or the section leader but not the music director and it's like, can we just you know, use a big list?

 And so just like a simple-use case like that, when you start using something like Chorus Connection or other course management software you're like oh my god I can't believe we never did this. Where it was like such an effort and we had to send all these emails to figure out who was just singing those concert So, you know, that's the kind of stuff we hear all the time. It's just like, Oh my gosh, it's so much easier to do it this way. Yeah.

Beth Philemon: Well, I'm sure there's a kind of a hurdle right for people. Unfortunately, and rightfully so, we live under this mindset that the arts don't have a lot of money. We don't have a ton of money to spend. How we are, we want to do it, down and dirty, Like we want to do it like bare bones have as much margin as possible to put back into things, etc. But this is a leap of faith. I think it goes back to that outsourcing thing that directors don't want to do, right?

Tori Cook: Yeah, but I also think like, you know, I agree. People are looking at budget as like kind of numbers. And I think if you actually looked at the volunteers that you have who or even your staff who are managing data. And how, if you can save them time they could be, oh I don't know, fundraising. They could be, you know, cultivating new donors, they could be promoting the concerts more. I just think that like when you're an organization, you think you have these volunteers who are just doing their like admin stuff, but you don't really, you're not really utilizing them in the best way to grow your organization. You're just sort of letting them do their thing. And because it makes everybody feel good that they're doing something, but you're not actually that's not helping you grow if you're wasting time doing things that could just be done more efficiently, if that makes sense. So, you know,

Beth Philemon: You have to work smarter not harder.

Tori Cook: Exactly. Yeah. I'd rather utilize my volunteers to do those things, then like I don't want them to be managing data that's not that's not helping us bring in revenue and sustain our organizations. Or create meaningful content like that's another big thing that we all have to do as organizations is create meaningful content well content takes time and you have to have time to do it. If you don't have time and you're just doing all this spreadsheet management. It's just you don't have the opportunity And so the people who succeed and who are organizations that are continuing to grow are the ones who have mastered this concept of, like, we're not going to waste time not waste money. They're not worried about the money that we're going to waste time doing things that aren't beneficial for the growth of our organization.So I think time is another thing that we don't look at as much as we do money.

Beth Philemon: Time is the one thing we can never get more of 

Tori Cook: And we too often forget that.

Beth Philemon: Exactly, yeah. Well, You know, you literally like let us perfectly into the next thing is that- and one of my other favorite things about Chorus Connection is- I've never given Chorus Connection one dollar,  just not because I wouldn't give you $1, but Just because I you know I haven't been in a play. I've only been a community choir leader in this sense, up until recently, and been primarily in church and schools and watching and learning and growing and I like what you guys are doing. But you and I think Choir Baton aligned are similar in this is that like We also just want to support the community and give back and create meaningful content and for years you have been creating incredibly meaningful content on Chorus Connection. So thank you.

Tori Cook: Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad you like it. Sometimes I write things. And I'm like, Make sense to anybody other than me. I hope so. And then I get like a ton of comments with people like yes, this is all helpful. And I'm like, Okay, good.

Beth Philemon: Isn't it the funniest thing and then sometimes you will write something or do something and you'd be like, this is gonna resonate with so many people and it's like crickets.

Tori Cook: Flop. Totally, yeah, I wrote, we wrote the season planning ebook for COVID-19 and that was something that I thought would get a lot of traction Um, where was I going with this?

Beth Philemon: Writing things and and not always like taking off like

Tori Cook: Okay. Oh, yeah.

Beth Philemon: The hours. I'm sure that you spent doing that.

Tori Cook: Oh, yes. So that was a really, really big projects. Um, but yeah, I mean that that's Really really well more than we expected it to. But I also think, Oh, I know what I was gonna say. So when I was writing it, I was like, I don't know. This just seems so like Obvious or like basic is this too basic to, like, I don't know, elementary like and I had some friends of mine look it over and they were like, no, I think this is really going to resonate with people. So we launched it in, it blew up and I was like okay so people really needed this. It wasn't just like me saying something they already knew.

Beth Philemon: I could not agree more.  Yes, I did the same thing. So Choir Baton listeners, we might not even edit this out because I'm very real life, but would you like to say hi. OK. So my story. Yeah, okay. This is real life and the pandemic world and I'm opening a cheese stick for my five year old nephew after he's just finished with kindergarten classes and My gosh.

Tori Cook: Yes. Good.

Beth Philemon: There you go, boo. Thank you for walking over here nicely and asking. Connor will eat it. He just dropped it on the floor, um, So the dog will come eat it at some point. But I think that it is- so, like you said it right. It's the elementary level and we don't mean elementary Lord like yeah I always say like steady beat is the hardest musical concept and we think of it as an elementary concept and I like no DMA’s that struggle with keeping steady beat. We all do, but  I have found that too, like I like haphazardly do something just breaking it down and then I'm like, Oh, wait. Because I've thought about this 35,000 times. Other people don't have the time that we do to do this and it speaks to the importance of your work.

Tori Cook: Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm really lucky to have a job where I can sit down and focus on creating useful content, but also just kind of strategizing what I would do in this situation and, you know, a lot of it obviously comes from real life experience. But when I was president of acquire I certainly didn't have the time to sit and write all of my volunteer contingency plans and my marketing strategies and all these things. I was a volunteer already working probably like 20 hours a week. You just don't have the time to do that. So like part of me feels like I'm like that. Well, first of all, I get paid to do it so It's great. Yeah, but it's like I'm your, your person who's like, if you don't have the time to do this, I'm going to create it, because if you need it. Probably a million other people need it so

Beth Philemon: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, and I love like so if you have not signed up for the Chorus Connection newsletter you hop over to their website, sign up, they come out the first day of every month or sometimes it's like the day before. If it's on a weekend. Right.

Tori Cook: Yeah, you can basically subscribe to get an alert. Every time something new comes or like a monthly digest and it's the first of the month, usually. Yeah.

Beth Philemon: Maybe you've changed it. And there's more things I can go in there and adjust my settings. Um, that's but it's always like I open every single one of them because I know that there's valuable content. And I know we all get 3000 emails a day and so as someone that also does emails in a variety of settings. I know the time that it takes to do that, so it's always so over and so well organized and one of the ways I know you guys have always been leaning in. But you've particularly leaned in and the last seven, eight months for the choir community.

As coven and the pandemic has truly affected choirs and I think thank you first and foremost because I always learned stuff from it. But I'm curious, like what has that been like, what have you observed and seen?

Tori Cook: Um, yeah, it's been tough for everybody, I think, but it's also, you know, provided us with a lot of interesting new ideas that I think we're kind of needed for our community. Like I kind of feel like choral communities as a whole we adopt these best practices over time and they just become us and we don't have time or energy or the will to really innovate and think outside of the box. 

So we're like, okay, we do a standard season lunch and we do four concerts, or three concerts, or whatever. And this is how it works. And we're status quo. We're just very much status quo right now. So I think that it's actually given us this incredible opportunity to sort of re-evaluate what choral organizations bring to our community and what our value is. And are we, you know, purposeless without performances.

 I wrote a blog about this too, or I actually did write a blog. We had a guest blogger rant about this. And you know, I think that the answer is no. We still have a purpose. Even if it's not performing for live audiences. And so I think that it's just been really, really interesting. Even though it's really scary. And we have real fears. And we're losing revenue, and we're worried about the sustainability of our organizations. We've also been given this great opportunity to rethink our purpose and that's been really cool to see the innovation that's come out of that.

Beth Philemon: Yeah. What are some of the cool examples that you've seen?

Tori Cook: Well, I just did one recently and going back to, you know, actually, I don't know that we said this earlier, but like just online people being mean.

Beth Philemon: Oh, Yes, before we started recording. Hi. We're just talking about certain things. And I told her, I'm out for context for people listening. I was like, You know, I care about large like I care about growth requirements on but I'm also not like always worried about numbers because like sometimes people in choir can be mean about certain things. So that was the context shes alluding to. 

Tori Cook: Yeah, and I think like online, people can just be mean because they don't necessarily know you and that kind of thing so so recently, the most the coolest thing that I've heard about recently is the concept of Dr inquires And they use, it's really not about the drive in peace as much as it is about finding technology to be able to sing in a socially distance away and whatever way that is if you're driving in if you're in a building with 10 different rooms and you have 10 different singers in every room, the technology is there.

 And so the people who have started doing these drive in choir have really laid out the technology to do socially distanced sings. And so we did a blog about it and I interviewed a couple clients that are doing it. And it was so cool. I mean, really, it's, it's even very simple technology. It's basically like a wireless microphone, FM headset or FM radio or car radio and you can hear everybody and you can sing synchronously together in time, no lag from each other. Right. And it's and it's like I don't know if it's just one of those things where, you know, the next webinar happened like back in May, the very first one where people were like, we're not going to be able to sing for two years and it was like kind of a panic situation and then you know these audio engineers were like, well, we're gonna find a way we're gonna find a way to sing together and they did. 

And I just, I think that that's so cool. But when we launched that blog. It was totally a mixed bag. People were like, Oh, I can't wait to try this. And then there were people that were just like, no, this is dumb. But I'm like, can we just agree that this is like it's innovative And the only way that people move forward is to continue to adapt and innovate, so

Beth Philemon: It’s scary how much we have seen people push back about what Choir is and what Choir is not through this and it's been heartbreaking to see some choir teachers be like Online singing online Choir is not choir and then they're the same people that are complaining  they don't have singers in their choir. And yeah, I can go on Tik tok and essentially see versions of choir of people singing together online and yet choir teachers say they don't have singers and people in, you can't see online. And I'm like, yeah.

Tori Cook: Yeah, people are finding ways to sing, Right. And I think that there's always two types of people. There's the people that do like the status quo and there's the people that challenge the status quo and like, to an extent, you kind of need both. You kind of need the realists, who are like there are budget restrictions. Um, but then you also need the people that are willing to be like to challenge that and be like, Well, what if we did this. What if we did this. What if we did this and are willing to make it work. And I think that like I'm definitely the make it work kind of person. So I am always looking for different ideas and always trying to change, you know, everything that challenge everything that we're doing. But sometimes that does get people riled up a little bit because-  I did a blog of this at some point about resistance to change, but it's very natural to be resistant to change. So as part of our psychology any sort of change can make a spin

Beth Philemon: Absolutely.  Absolutely. You know you straddle my two worlds right like business and Choir is someone that loves both what has been officially in business, right. I know you've always done it through nonprofits and stuff, but particularly within this role. What do you, what have you learned that has helped you as a musician?

Tori Cook: Oh, through my work in this type of work. Yeah. Ah, interesting. It's a very good question. Huh. That I didn't know why i knew i thought that i can apply to my music. Yeah.

Well, I think probably a couple things I would say that the first is that I am I've always had, I've always been someone who has severe stage fright. I love singing. I love singing with people I love singing by myself, but I do not like performing So I think that to perform or to be a musician, you really have to put yourself out there. And I think that the same can be said with creating content and in the business world like doing this with you. You really have to put yourself out there and you have to kind of put your neck on the line and, like, be prepared.

for negative feedback and positive feedback and people, you know, looking at you and judging you, and thinking about your face and the things that you say and I think that the more I put myself out there to do those things. Obviously the more comfortable. I get with it. I'll never be 100% comfortable But I do think that doing these kinds of things helps me be more confident as a musician. So I'd say that's probably the biggest thing.

Beth Philemon: Yeah, I love that is huge. It is Terrifying and exhilarating to put yourself out there like that.

Tori Cook: Yeah, yeah. I hate it but I do it because I, you have to to grow, you know,

Beth Philemon: I love knowing that little background about you because we also make up stories about people that we don't know. Not intentionally right But like we just, it's just how we categorize as humans, and I would have never suspected that about you and knowing that and hearing that. So thank you for sharing that. And being vulnerable. Within that, but now as I'm reflecting, I can see like the “ballsiness” of your content change probably as you even owned that more and more

Tori Cook: Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think especially when I first started when you first started any job you're kind of like questioning what are the boundaries you can push And definitely when I first started doing it. I was more cautious. I was, you know, trying to make sure that I understood what would fit in the brand and what the audience would like and everything like that. And now I think that people have gotten to know me and the Chorus Connection well enough that they give us a little bit more allowances to think outside the box. Like if I had written this drive in choirs blog three years ago, I think everyone would have been like this girl is wack! Who is this girl. Um, but I think now it's people are more receptive to to that. Yeah, yeah.

Beth Philemon: I love it. I'm here for it. Like, I was like, you're changing and I hadn't thought about it really until this conversation and I just- It's really powerful, because I think we need more of that thinking out of the box. We need more people sharing their thoughts and opinions. We need more women.

Tori Cook: Yeah. Say it again. We need more women.

Beth Philemon: Yes, because you're also one I haven't like, you're one of the most prolific Choir bloggers and then hands down probably the most prolific female choir blogger that I know of.

Tori Cook: Oh my gosh.

Beth Philemon: I don't know if anyone else has written as many blogs and stuff on choir things as you have done.

Tori Cook: Wow, that's crazy to think about. Honestly, I've never thought about that. Okay, now you're scaring me.

Beth Philemon: I'm celebrating you like because it's, it is true, though I hadn't intended for us to talk about this, but um  I, you know, we as women. I think sometimes show up differently. Well, I know we show it probably differently than our male counterpoints, parts points, whatever. Yeah, um, and there is so much less I have the saying that I'm a sentence, I just need to channel my inner white male, I need to channel my inner

Tori Cook: Yeah, yeah. Well, and, you know, currently, I am the only female out of the company, but I will say that, you know, my colleagues are really, really supportive of me. So I mean I've certainly had experiences in the past where everything I did everything I produced content was put into question. And some of that maybe was because I was young. Some of it maybe was because I'm a woman. I think some of it definitely was. I'm not going to give you specific examples.

Beth Philemon: No, I won’t ask.

Tori Cook: Yeah, but, um, I, I have really supportive co workers who who trust me and

You know, if I'm ever feeling nervous about putting something out there, they're pretty much like, you know, trust your gut and we like it and we think other people will like it. And you do you, so that's been really nice to have a supportive work environment where you know I it's really probably  I don't know if I was it is, but it's probably the first time in a work environment where I felt fully like I could be myself and that I wouldn't get like reprimanded for it or when it gets I don't know reprimanded so right word, but

Beth Philemon: You have to be on the defensive almost. Yes.

Tori Cook: Exactly, yes. Yeah, you have to constantly like be prepared to like explain why you're making the choices you're making. And yeah, you have to be on the defensive a lot. I don't think I have to do that here.

Beth Philemon: That's amazing. That's amazing. I think, yeah, it's such a testament to the fact of the there are so many amazing allies out there in regards to supporting people on the binary gender spectrum, but they're like, then the entire gender spectrum as well and it's Shout out to those people to your colleagues right and and then people I've worked with, etc. Because that difference goes beyond just the one relationship but expands even greater

Tori Cook: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, there's so many. There's so many things we need to fix, right.

Beth Philemon: But you’re showing up and writing those blogs And communicating with people that's fixing it more than fixing other people because it's like intrinsically opening their hearts and minds to hearing things

Tori Cook: Yeah, thank you for saying that. That's sweet

Beth Philemon: I 110% mean it 110% Mean it, um, Yeah. I just think, like I said, I've all I've been a fangirl of what you guys are doing, of Chorus Connection of how you give back of what you do. I love the inclusion of technology and data, because I think If we want to continue to make a big impact in the world for choir music and music in general, but especially you know communal singing and community singing it is my heart and passion. Yeah. We could Do a whole other episode on that too, and the importance of it, but we have to be Smart. We have to work smarter, not harder. We have to use data, we have to use technology. 

Tori Cook: Mm hmm. Yeah, we're forced to now. You can't get around it at this point. Yeah.

Beth Philemon: Oh, I don't know, there are still some choirs probably trying to get around it. I mean, maybe not this year. Yeah, you do the pandemic, but, um, and we can utilize it. And it can make us better and it can help us grow and and help have more people singing.

Tori Cook: Yeah absolutely 100%

Beth Philemon: Awesome. Well, it has been so wonderful to have you on the podcast today.  Thank you for sharing.

Tori Cook: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. It's been fun. I’m gonna grow from this experience, you know,

Beth Philemon: Because I want to have you on again because I have more questions. I want to pose to you as you know, I think, important topics for us to continue to explore is like, how, how are we doing in community choirs. I firmly believe we're going to see more community choir's in the next several years because we'll see school choirs dissipate some with more online learning. And I think if we want choirs to like to grow. I think we're seeing more chior teachers leave and then want to start community choirs. And Oh, I have a whole yeah I could talk 

Forever. So I'd love your thoughts.

Beth Philemon: But every time I turn on the news at least once a week, if not more. What is the story that they have featured through this, it is communal singing

Tori Cook: Absolutely, yeah, it's important

Beth Philemon: It is, it is. So if there was ever a time we needed to come together, now is it

Tori Cook: Yeah yeah thinking maybe we need to ditch our Facebook accounts and just keep  singing. I just watched the social dilemma. As a marketer I can't say this, but it was stressful. We can cut this so or

Beth Philemon: No, but no, actually I think everyone should watch the social dilemma. Because that is the reason why you can't be adverse to data.

Tori Cook: Mm hmm.

Beth Philemon: And I think we live in a community. And I say this because I have lived in that community up until like the last five years that I thought what data could they get about me that I don't really know. We don't really like our I think every choir teacher in addition to taking business courses should make sure they take statistics. Yeah, like statistics are so important. And I just had my first six class, a year ago, two years, a year ago. And it was mind blowing. It was mind blowing.

Tori Cook: Yeah, yeah, you could go down a whole rabbit hole of all things you could do there. I

Beth Philemon: Think that is the language. Our world is speaking. And if we want to continue to substantiate All those beautiful news stories of people singing and we can come and bring data to the table. I mean, watch out, Apple! I’m coming for you, Ted!

Tori Cook: Is there a way of saying we need some sort of choir social media app?, All right, what I can’t I can’t

Beth Philemon: Yes, clearly we came to this. Yeah. Okay. So, we will have a full other conversation about this and people. We will link in the bio where to find where to sign up for Chorus Connection to get the newsletter. If people want to learn more about the software. What's the best way for them to do that?

Tori Cook: I will also send you a link for that, but to just email me honestly [email protected] That's the easiest way to get in touch and I'll actually be the one personally talking to you, and you know, showing you the product, but also, most of the time when I talk to people. I just talk shop. So email me anytime. We'll talk shop.

Beth Philemon: I love it, I love it and go check out her blogs, they are awesome! Reading through them so many great ideas, thoughts, etc. It's, um, you know, again, it's that giving back to the community beyond the software itself.

Tori Cook: Yeah, definitely. Awesome. Thanks again. 

Beth Philemon: Thank you.

Tori Cook: Thanks. Have a good one.